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August 22, 2002
He's Back: Controversial Ron Greer Returns for Another Congressional Run
A WisPolitics.com
Exclusive Interview
by Jeff Mayers
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Ron Greer
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Compared to 1998, Wisconsin's slate of congressional races in 2002 is a sleeper. In '98, the national parties and interest groups played a part in three hot races: The 1st District, where Republican Paul Ryan won; the 8th, where Republican Mark Green won; and the 2nd, where Democrat Tammy Baldwin won, becoming the state's first female Congress-person. This year, the national pundits have all but declared every state incumbent a winner.
Still, Democrats and Republicans alike are taking notice of the 2nd District Congressional race, which will pit the liberal Baldwin -- in a new, slightly more Democratic district -- against the winner of the Sept. 10 Republican primary. The GOP primary features two conservatives -- Phil Alfonsi and Ron Greer, the part-time pastor whose flamboyant image is fixed from a '98 race that displayed some of his anti-homosexual viewpoints. Baldwin is a lesbian.
Republican insiders say Greer has the advantage of name identification and conservative support from the '98 race but has a disadvantage of appearing intolerant to the "Isthmus Republicans" who preferred the moderate politics of former congressman Scott Klug and near-2000 winner John Sharpless.
On tape, Greer discussed his chances, his party's reluctance to embrace his candidacy, and his controversial image: ``Leadership is about understanding what your convictions are, knowing what you believe and why you believe them, and also knowing where people should be moving ... and then lead them there. Rather than finding out what the latest poll says, and saying let's go that direction. That's not me and if people want that, OK, don't vote for me,'' Greer says.
Off tape, he theorized that the Libertarian candidacy of Ed Thompson will help him in the general election if he beats Alfonsi. Greer says Thompson has appeal in conservative Democratic Rock County, a big chunk of the new 2nd District. He says there's a crossover between his supporters and Thompson's supporters, and between the outsider messages of his campaign and Thompson's campaign. So, the better Ed Thompson does, the better Greer does, according to Greer.
WisPolitics.com Editor Jeff Mayers interviewed Greer earlier this month.
Mayers: What have you been doing since '98?
Greer: I started working with Prison Fellowship Ministries. Two things, well, I was traveling around with Chuck Colson raising money for ministry. And then, they enticed me to come work for them. And then I didn't have any money and no job, and it wasn't hard to entice me.
Mayers: So, you were working with Colson's group?
Greer: Right, so, basically in one capacity or another I've been working with Christian Fellowship up until March 31st, I resigned March 31st. Started in September developing a transitional (facility) called Fellowship House. It's a faith-based ...transitional home for Christian ex-offenders coming out.
Mayers: Here in Wisconsin?
Greer: Actually, here in Madison we were supposed to launch June 1st, but thanks to the city of Madison. ...
Mayers: That didn't happen. A zoning issue, or?
Greer: Well, it became a zoning issue. At first it wasn't an issue at all, it was fine, OK, it was just that somehow strange enough that...
Mayers: So, zoning was the hang-up?
Greer: Yea, they wanted a conditional-use permit. Even though it's already a group home, I won't go there right now.
Mayers: So, are you still doing that right now?
Greer: Believe it or not, I'm still trying to raise money for that and find another place, and now I have to go back and raise more money. So, doing that, and now, of course doing the campaign. ...
Mayers: So, you started late, is that what you’re telling me?
Greer: I started late. I couldn’t start earlier than that, because first (Prison Fellowship) doesn’t allow you to be involved in political campaigns and activity while you’re working for them, which is reasonable. And, I couldn’t resign earlier from PF without getting (Fellowship House) developed first and funds. So, it just got started late. But, I figured early on that at least I had the advantage of having name recognition and some notoriety around the district. And, I had a bunch of people who were sorry they didn’t vote last time, I wanted to take advantage of that. I had that big advantage there. And a bunch of folks waiting to help. I think I had a little time.
Mayers: Are you still a minister?
Greer: Ah, yes, I am.
Mayers: Didn’t you have your own church?
Greer: We had our own church, we combined…
Mayers: Do you still have that?
Greer: No, we combined our church with another small church called New Beginnings Alliance Church, now (on Madison's East Side). ...
Mayers: You’re one of the pastors there?
Greer: I’m one of the associate pastors now. Which really means I don’t get paid and I don’t have a whole lot of responsibility.
Mayers: So every once in a while you get to preach on Sundays?
Greer: Well, I’m the relief guy.
Mayers: You’re the relief pitcher.
Greer: Put me in coach! So, it’s mainly, I assist with pastors, and leadership building. My kind of specialty is discipling men, and training men, like, one-on-one.
Mayers: Which goes with the prison ministries?
Greer: Right. So, I was working full time at Christian Fellowship, and the travel schedule just got outrageous, and there’s no way I could pastor a church and do that. And, they couldn’t afford to pay me what PF was paying me, so we combined the churches together, and I continued doing prison ministry and the discipleship there at, with New Beginning and some ex-offenders as well. And, we, still house ex-offenders in our home, and homeless people, too.
Mayers: Is that right?
Greer: So, we still do that. .... Either my wife is a saint or she's crazy, one of the two, but
anyway she puts up with me. We've actually had 27 people live with us.
Mayers: At one time?
Greer: No, no, usually no more than two at a time. I think 22 of them are ex-offenders and...
Mayers: Over what period of time?
Greer: Over, ah, I figure, 18, 19 years. ...So, anyway, those are the things that I have been doing. Just kind of continuing those things. And then I do training. I still do, well, I don't know, it's not free, but I still do training and volunteer mentoring in different places across the country when I get a chance. ...
Mayers: Now, let's talk about '98. You came very close to winning the primary that year, right? How many votes total?
Greer: I was told it was less than one vote per precinct. ...It's kind of painful to remember, so...
Mayers: So, let's say you had been the nominee, how do you think that would've turned out, you versus Tammy?
Greer: I think it would've been a very close finish. I think in the end I would've won. I think that the issue up front was that most people didn't see me as viable, and didn't think I had a chance to win at all, even the primary. Until, you know there were a few people in the press ... and a few others who said, wait a minute, don't take this guy lightly. ...
So, the thing that I've been doing since 1981, I've been doing in-prison seminars and doing bible studies and training volunteers, and those kind of things around the state. So, you figure, 20 years, and you stay at peoples' houses, you stay at their churches, you get to know who they are, what they believe. The advantage I had, the other candidates had none of that knowledge at all. So, I knew the things that appealed to people and what people wanted. So, my message was crafted that way. ....
My only concern was, and I think what happened was that the media would not take me seriously, and the other candidates wouldn't take me seriously. And, of course, the people would end up believing that and not vote. And, so, the two days after the election proved my point. We had 125 people call my office and apologize and say, ``I really didn't think you would win so I didn't vote, or I didn't vote for you.''
Mayers: Is that right?!
Greer: Oh, yeah! And this time around I tried to remember a lot of those numbers and names!
Mayers: I was going to say, I hope you kept a list of those names.
Greer: Trust me, I was digging deep for that list. But the thing -- I think I proved my point. There are certain values and views that are shared by a large portion of people in the district that there were a lot of people who didn't vote and didn't participate in the electoral process because they didn't because they were just ticked and just figured it doesn't do any good. And, a lot of folks, most of them, they like the fact that someone speaks clearly and plainly to them, exactly where you stand and what you think. Even if they disagree with you, they like the fact that they know where you are.
Mayers: I don't think there's any doubt that most people will know where you stand.
Greer: Absolutely.
Mayers: Equivocation is not a problem.
Greer: Not a problem with me, no. But, I knew from my time with people that that's what people appreciate and what they want. ...
Mayers: But now we're talking four years later, and I'm wondering if that energy is still there, because four years can be a long time in politics. So, what makes you think that the energy is still there?
Greer: One of the things I did early on when people would ask me about running. I said, "OK, if we can find enough people, enough volunteers, enough money out there potential to run, OK, I'll run." Because I'm not interested in making a statement and sending my family through this hell we call a campaign without having a good chance of winning, or thinking I do, rather. The one thing I knew, and still know is that as long as I'm here in the city, around the area, there hasn't been hardly a week gone past in four years that someone hasn't asked me about running again, if I was going to run again, or how it was great, and I really made an impression.
Mayers: I think people still remember you.
Greer: Oh, yeah. But the question is whether or not they'll vote right now.
Mayers: Do they remember you, and do they remember you in a way that
they want to go out and vote?
Greer: Oh, yeah. That's the people I mean. They are other people that remember me also. They hurl "F- you Ron Greer!" and growl, and stuff... So, I figure three and a half years, almost four years later, people still asking about a race you did four years, you did two races ago. OK, you really have to start thinking there's something here. ... And, early on, me and this one young lady who was helping volunteering, we got 75 people that said, look, I'll help with the campaign, I'll help you, whatever you need, I'm going to help. So, I said, OK, we got 75 volunteers would be enough to kind of start something. The other thing was, well I said there's got to be enough money there. So, I started talking to a number of people who I thought could help, and connect with people who had money, and I said look, would you be willing to work on my behalf and give money towards this campaign? To me, I said if I can get $125,000 dollars or so that would be a nice start. And, we had people upfront saying they would do that. And the third thing was..
Mayers: You don't have 125 grand on hand yet.
Greer: I know, it's amazing how that works, isn't it?
Mayers: I've never run a telethon, but the pledges must be hard to convert.
Greer: But, the thing was before the stock market did its whole deal -- last summer and spring people went, "Yeah, yeah, yeah," but now people are saying, "Well, you know, Ron, things are a little tight right now." ... But, I mean, that was one of the indicators that we had a good chance of doing it. And the third thing was, I said OK, we're going to need some national help also. And, if I can get two or three national figures who would say, look, I'd be willing to help you out. OK, that would be the last string.
Mayers: OK, so, who are they?
Greer: Chuck Colson originally said no, but he would talk to some people for me, but he wouldn't get involved. I said OK, BAM-PAC said yeah. .... And Alan Keyes said, "Yea, I'd be willing to help you out, just can't decide now how to do it, but we'll figure out some way of helping." ...
Mayers: So, you think you'll have enough money to run your race?
Greer: Well, I'm hoping to have enough money to run my race. ...
Mayers: Well, first things first. How do you view the primary?
Greer: I view the primary as being something we can't take for granted. But at the same time, I'm not losing sleep over the primary. Frankly, I'm not losing sleep over either one, general either. Our focus is primarily the general with Tammy Baldwin. I think the primary is winnable. ...
Mayers: But you feel confident about the primary?
Greer: Oh, yeah.
Mayers: Mostly because you ran before and people know who you are?
Greer: Because I ran before and people know who I am, and just watching the enthusiasm out in the district. I mean, it frightens me at times.
Mayers: It frightens you, the enthusiasm?
Greer: Well, yeah! I mean, I'm happy, but on the other hand, I'm thinking, "OK, is there someone out there that's playing a game with me?"
Mayers: Let's talk about Tammy Baldwin in 2002. Is she any different than she was in 1998?
Greer: Other than being worse, yeah!
Mayers: Other than being worse?
Greer: I don't think it's much different other than the fact that I think she's more adamant about the radical sort of ideas she has.
Mayers: She's more adamant about it?
Greer: Sure, I think...
Mayers: I think there's been the exact opposite. I think there's been a makeover in the campaign and in the office to make her more moderate.
Greer: I think that's part of the media, the PR war. The district has changed, it's much more pro-family, conservative. Even Democrats are much more conservative, Democrats in the district.
Mayers: Rock County?
Greer: Yeah. So she's trying to give this image that she's more like them.
Mayers: What do you mean by that?
Greer: Tammy's been around a long time, she has a long history and -- even since the (Dane) county board. I have a tendency to believe that leopards don't change their spots. They may get dyed over, but the spots are still there, they're still leopards. And that's Tammy. Her base here, in this area in Madison in particular (the Isthmus), knows that Tammy's still the same Tammy, which is why the enthusiasm is still there. ...There's this sort of radical mindset, radical views...
Mayers: Other than the fact that she's an open lesbian, what is the radical strain that runs through Tammy Baldwin?
Greer: Well, I think, for instance, right now, we have this economic situation where I think everyone is in agreement that a revamping, cutting of the tax code, and revamping the tax system is part of the, is part of the biggest key in reviving the economy. OK, if everybody knows that on both sides, how do you stand and block that and vote against
that? If you're talking about it nationally, that's one thing, but if you're talking about people in the district here, you're talking about what the people in the district here, what the majority of them think and want. She votes against that. To me, that's radical.
Mayers: What, in particular did she vote against?
Greer: The president's package to stimulate the economy. And, not just voting against that ...but the constant, sort of berating the economic growth package and on and on. I
think, personally, the president's package was pretty moderate. I would've gone much further than that, but he wants to compromise and do the bipartisan thing.
Mayers: But it didn't pass.
Greer: No, it didn't pass, because, again, the election's coming up. They need the election issue. ... Her voting and her talking against, talking about the war on terrorism and voting against the military spending increase. I can see only if you voted against the PATRIOT Act because yes, well, I have some concerns against the privacy issues, but what I'm hearing is oppositions to military increases, and oppositions to military increase
in activity, pay raise and so forth. And I'm saying, ``Hey, wait a minute, that's radically different from the rest of the country.'' ...
Mayers: But is it radically different from the 2nd District?
Greer: Oh, sure, absolutely! ...
Mayers: So, the bottom line is in your view she's not supporting the war on terrorism.
Greer: No, no. You know, you can't support the war on terrorism and vote against military spending and the terrorism thing here. I mean, that doesn't make sense. The whole prescription drug thing and the Social Security, retirement security, you know, she talks about her concern for the elderly ... and all those things. She ran on health care and education. But, yet, when it comes down to voting for certain things she's opposed to the most sensible thing out there. ...
Social Security is going to be gone in fifteen years. That's a given, all right, and the only option we have is to end Social Security or cut the benefits, raise the retirement age, raise the tax of Social Security, which nobody I know wants, nobody. OK, so, your plan is to vote against what the president and the House have proposed and say a lot of people have invested money in a risky scheme, and dangerous and this sort of deal, and scaring old people. I think that's radically different from other folk want and think.
Mayers: Tell me again, which plan do you support then?
Greer: I would support a plan where by people can take the vast majority of their Social Security money and invest it.
Mayers: Is there a bill anyone has sponsored that you like?
Greer: At this point I couldn't tell right off the top of my head.
Mayers: You're for giving people more choices for Social Security?
Greer: Yes, absolutely.
Mayers: Even in today's market?
Greer: Yes, even in today's market, because as bad as people think the market is, it's still better than Social Security, because you can still get more than 2 percent.
Mayers: Well, I think a lot of people would be happy with two percent. ...
Greer: Not only in the last quarter, overall. Over the long haul, the stock market is still strong and still does good. ....
And the other thing is over the long haul the stock market has done well. And the only people who have gotten in trouble are those who have invested a large portion of money in one particular company or one stock. What I have talked about, and what other people have been proposing -- even Democrats are proposing -- is to have a money market or a mutual fund type set-up where you invest your money in a large balanced portfolio, managed by legitimate folk. Everybody will tell you, you can't lose.
But the problem I have is, you have people like Tammy Baldwin and other Democrats -- Al Gore is the same way -- who keep talking about how horrible it is to have people invest and lose their money and they'll be bankrupt. I haven't heard any one of them tell me that they've taken every dollar they had out of the stock market, out of mutual funds. None of them have divested. If it's such a risky scheme and so crazy, and people don't want it, why don't they pull their money out? I'm saying that's far different from what people want.
My parents have gone through these crazy situations, my father brags about getting $1,200 dollars a month. He's retired from two jobs, turned 70, he gets his Social Security, and he's bragging about that because he's making more than his buddies. ... I lost my job, three-fourths of my retirement fund, I've never paid Social Security
when I worked at the fire department, ever in those 18 years. I lose three-fourths of my retirement. I could take a penalty and take money out of that, and for the next, probably 15 years or more, get more money than my father gets every month. Two or three hundred dollars more, and I'm saying wait a minute, why should just I have that credit? I think everybody should have that credit. But I think, with the Social Security, what I think Tammy and I disagree on is that everybody should be allowed to invest their money, they should be given more choices than that.
Mayers: I don't think people view that as radical, though. Her thinking on that is sort of conventional.
Greer: That's not what I hear.
Mayers: I guess it's conventional because that's the way it's been. I'm not sure I would view that position as radical.
Greer: I would view that as radical. I would view her opposition to the military increases, military improvement, and the military radical. I would characterize her views on marriage and family, traditional families as being radical, different from everybody else. I mean, radical in the sense that it is so far different from everybody else. I don't think any company should be forced to give same-sex benefits to couples living together and same-sex partners or anyone else. I think if companies want to give benefits to married couples, they should do that. If they want to give them to other couples, OK, that's their business. They shouldn't be forced to. I think that's radically different from everyone else.
Mayers: Some people might say, `There you go again, Ron.' I mean, those who might say you're too outspoken for your own good.
Greer: Yeah. ...
Mayers: Can you win a race by being so outspoken in what is a Democratic district? Can you win a race like that by being so outspoken?
Greer: I think if you're outspoken about the things that are important to the average person, that's what people want. That's what you should do. Why have people representing you who don't speak on your behalf, and they don't know where you stand, or what's important to you? I think marriage, I think family, I think strong communities, I
think those things are important to people. And we should be very, very clear about what we mean when we say traditional families. We need to know what I mean when I talk about quality education. I'm not talking about spending a lot of money on failed schools. I think we should give parents a right to make a decision to send their kids wherever they want to send them. I think restricting parents from that is wrong and immoral, and most people don't like that. I should talk about that.
Does it make people uncomfortable, sure it does. I think the value of human life should be an issue. .... You know, I think abortion is wrong. I think euthanasia is wrong. I think cloning, and embryonic stem-cell research is wrong, because it devalues human life. Now, should I not talk about those things? Some people say yes because it's controversial. OK, it's controversial, but that's what's important to people. And in the long run, those are the type of things that are going to be most important.
I remember, and I think about ....the Republican Party. And I remember reading about the whole issue of slavery. ...And I'm saying, OK, the same people that say I'm being outspoken and controversial and shouldn't be talking about those things, they would be the same people back then that would be saying: ``Well, we can't talk about the slavery issue; it's too divisive and too controversial.'' ...
I'm glad there were people back then who were radical enough to say, ``No, this is an important issue.'' We talk about human beings and the value of human beings, God giving value to those human beings. You know, I'm glad they were controversial people, and they were willing to speak out. And if we all sort of decided we all won't be controversial, we won't speak out on issues that make some people uncomfortable, we'd
never see progress. You'd never have innovation. ...we wouldn't be the country we are now.
If you think about it, you had a bunch of preachers talking about revolution in church at some pulpits (about) freeing the country from England. Well, that was insane at the time. However, we have this country we have now, because we were willing to be controversial and willing to lead rather than figure out what the rest of the flock wants to try to move along. ...Leadership is about understanding what your convictions are, knowing what you believe and why you believe them, and also knowing where people should be moving ... and then lead them there. Rather than finding out what the latest poll says, and saying let's go that direction. That's not me and if people want that, OK, don't vote for me.
One of my pet peeves is education and school choice. ... Again, maybe it's radical to say, (but) when you tell me that you're opposed to poor and black kids having the same advantage as that of affluent white kids and a good school system that she has. ...Personally, I take that a little more seriously sometimes, because it says that somehow you don't think that our little black kids should have the same opportunity
as rich white kids have. ...
When you talk about (supporting) abortion, you support any type of abortion. Now, wait a minute, 35 percent of all the kids killed in this country are black and poor. And you say, somehow giving those mothers a right, you're giving them a privilege to kill their kids. I'm sorry, but to me, that sounds like genocide. If 35 percent of all the babies killed are black, the highest concentration of abortion clinics, Planned Parenthood and the rest of them, are in urban areas, i.e. black areas, excuse me, but that's a little radical for me. ....
Mayers: You've said the Republican Party wasn't helping you out, that they were missing the boat because they needed more blacks in the Republican Party, like, what are they thinking, right?
Greer: What I meant is this: ...the Republican Party hasn't made the case to black folks in particular, they've been outdone in the media by the Democrats, they've been outdone in building coalitions by the Democrats, primarily because just because the Democratic Party hasn't been above lying. I'm sorry, above deception, I'll put it that way.
Mayers: Above deception in what?
Greer: In telling people, telling black communities that we are here for the people, ...we support the working man. ...Well, let me get this straight, the Republican Party started because there were some people who believed that blacks were indeed -- had the same rights as white people, and they started a party. When it came to black people being constitutionally recognized and having the vote, it was the Republican Party. As a matter of fact when slavery was going on it was Democrats who wanted to maintain slavery, and it was the Republican president who freed slaves. When it came to Jim Crow, southern Democrats who enacted Jim Crow, it was northern Republicans who were fighting against that sort of thing. As I recall, the Democratic Party, I mean, as a kid in Tennessee, the Democratic Party from my perspective was controlled by the Ku Klux Klan for years...
Mayers: The Democratic Party doesn't mean anything good to you.
Greer: Nothing at all. Nothing at all. Because I look at it historically, and black folks have this historical connection to the Republican Party. I remember my ...(grandfather) getting highly upset around the time that Kennedy was running. I didn't know who Kennedy was at the time, but I knew they were talking about this guy, Kennedy. ... Was a very quiet man, my grandfather, said it quite loud, stood up, and it stuck in my head because I'd never seen him do it before, and he got mad and swore at them and said, "Any nigger who votes for a Democrat is a fool." Now my grandfather, at the time I didn't know what a Democrat is, an animal, or what? But, later on I come to understand ...why was Daddy James so upset? Because he was the son of a sharecropper. He was also the grandson of a slave. And, he's also a man living in a house on a piece of land that white Democrats owned...
And, I think they won the war, the media war, because if you look at where the Democratic Party is now. The party opposes school choice and improving inner city schools, i.e. black schools, the Democratic Party. It wasn't the Republican Party, in the federal, state lawsuit (in the) Supreme Court fighting against school choice, it was the Democrats. When you talk about inner city areas, economic development, giving businesses and corporations tax breaks to spur economic development and jobs in those areas, it's not Republicans who are opposed to that; it's Democrats opposed to that. You talk about improving family relationships, and encouraging marriage among those families. ...We want to talk about encouraging marriage and discouraging sex outside marriage. It's not the Republicans who are fighting against that; it's the Democrats fighting against that. I could go on and on down the line.
Mayers: All that being said, is the Republican Party going to help you?
Greer: I don't think they're going do much during the primary, no. They've made that clear.
Mayers: But, this isn't a targeted race in the general, is it?
Greer: It isn't a targeted race. And I think it's a mistake. I think it's a mistake. They're missing the boat again. J.C. Watts' leaving is not simply by accident.But at the same time I sympathize, I understand where he is coming from. I am disappointed that he's leaving, because I think that we need to kind of fight a little bit more to make the case. ....
Mayers: How are you going to win the race if it's not targeted? Assuming you're running against Tammy? Are you going to win that race if it's not targeted and if you don't get any help?
Greer: I think there's going to be national help from other organizations and other groups. And I think the national party will indeed eventually see and understand this is something they need to target. I think that will come along.
The WisPolitics Interview is Copyright © 2002 WisPolitics Publishing
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